Roadkill on the Convergence Highway...

from the dept. Duke Weber writes "Microsoft sometimes gets it right after three tries. Not so with Windows Media Center 2005 . You do get a dancing Scooby Doo. You don't get much Media." From the article: "As a DVR, one tuner was just OK, with a second tuner working, it was still OK, provided you weren't too picky about mouths moving at the same time words came out. Out with the snazzy Realtek integrated sound on the ASUS-A8V motherboard. In with an Audigy 2ZS to lessen the load on the AMD 64 3000+ processor. More gadgets. That cured the synch. The picture still was no where close to a vintage Tivo. But it does keep track of the programs, important with a terabyte of disc."

(http://das.doit.wisc.edu/ ) The biggest issue with media centers is a very practical one: tuning. How do you tune channels from cable or satellite providers when a set top box provided by cable or satellite provider is essentially required? The "IR blaster" solution is inelegant at best, and gets even more inelegant if you want more than one tuner. That was Microsoft's biggest miscalculation in the media center strategy.

Conversely, the cable and satellite providers themselves will be able to provide one device that can record all of your digital content, AND acts as your set top box, AND has multiple tuners AND handles SD, HD, digital, and analog, AND doesn't require a large initial expenditure: most providers will give you all of this for under $10/month, in a turnkey solution that "just works". Granted, it's not as flexible and capable as your own box, but most will accept this tradeoff. Most won't even know there *was* a tradeoff.

But what of all your other media? Your music, your movies, your videos? Indeed, Apple's media center strategy is a novel one: it includes all traditional media center functions except perhaps the primary one: television recording. Instead, it's taken the bold next step: bypass the tuning issue and the recording issue entirely by bypassing the cable and satellite operators entirely, and delivering the content directly to you. The cable operators will still provide a service: it will just be bandwidth, and not content. [ Reply to This ] Re:Issues by CuteVlogger (Score:3) Tuesday October 25, @06:21PM Re:Issues by pintomp3 (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @06:21PM Re:Issues by raventh1 (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @10:49PM Re:Issues by kebes (Score:3) Tuesday October 25, @06:24PM If you have digital cable by tepples (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @07:50PM Re:If you have digital cable by captain_craptacular (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @08:00PM Re:Issues by whoever57 (Score:3) Tuesday October 25, @06:32PM Re:Issues by poot_rootbeer (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @06:43PM Re:Issues by krakelohm (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @08:21PM Re:Issues by qodfathr (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @10:49PM CableCard by wiredlogic (Score:3) Tuesday October 25, @06:44PM Re:Issues by SeattleGameboy (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @06:47PM (Score:4, Interesting) by SuperKendall (25149) * on Tuesday October 25, @07:01PM (#13876502 ) What? I can only watch 4 lousy ABC shows? What? Only 320 by 200 resolution???

You fail to think of the future, when there could be a lot more TV shows there. Possibly even in better resolution though the current one is more than good enough to convey the subtle nuances TV has to offer (I can tell you've not tried watching any of them). It's definatley a far cry better than VCR or over the air quality.

The basic principle is sound. Why bother with all the UI and technical architecture issues you have with recording when the whole point of a PVR is to get a file into a random access digital file anyway? Aren't you simply better off starting with a whole digital file and working from there? Why does there need to ever be a time component involved other than when content is initially put up for aquisition?

TV viewers are like someone waiting at an airport luggage carosel, waiting until just the right interval of time arrives to get what they want. Why should TV viewing be that unpleasant now when there is no need. Why doesn't your video luggage just arrive and wait right in front of you for you to get it, now that it can.

I can also watch HD football on the Mac BTW - either with an HD tuner or downloading a torrent of same. In the future I should just be able to come home any time and start a football stream from scratch if I like.

DirecTV with Tivo: $0 + $4/month = $480 over 10 years.

Good luck with that cheaper part. [ Reply to This Parent ] Re:Easier than Myth by fishybell (Score:3) Tuesday October 25, @07:04PM Re:Easier than Myth by ivan256 (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @08:14PM Re:Easier than Myth by Jambon (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @09:39PM (Score:5, Insightful) by merreborn (853723) on Tuesday October 25, @06:29PM (#13876243 ) ...as long as it's easier than MythTV to set up and cheaper than Tivo over 5-10 years, I'll do it.

If you can get a windows media center box for $500, lifetime service included, then by all means...

(Last Journal: Tuesday November 02, @07:14PM ) Replay TV for me, all the way...

I like auto-skipping commercials, which is something I haven't seen in other DVRs.

(http://www.lbcpc.com/ Last Journal: Monday February 21, @12:54PM ) I've never used Windows Media Center, but almost all of the problems he's complaining about sound like hardware problems, driver issues, or he chose the wrong hardware to begin with.

I have a feeling that if he had chosen his equipment better, or done a little more research before buying everything, he wouldn't have had the problems.

(http://www.fairtax.org/ Last Journal: Monday September 12, @08:14PM ) Primal cravings make people do strange and stupid things. They made me build a Windows Media Center PC. ... snip ...

The first secret is that you need to scam your way into getting a copy of Windows XP Media Edition 2005, which is only sold to OEMs.

I bet if this guy tried to build a real TiVo, it might suck as well.

Perhaps windows media center is sold to OEMs only because they are the ones that know how the machines have to be built to work properly?

(http://service-architecture.blogspot.com/ ) For me the big issue here is that the aim of a central server that controls all of your media means that people will have to all become system adminstrators. This is hardly likely, the idea of my Wife worrying about menus to record programmes off the TV is not the sort of thing I look forwards to. Something like a TiVo is perfect as its a TV device that intends to record programmes and nothing else. My wife's iPod is perfect to listen to music on even if there is the irritant of having to connect it to the PC (and this is an irritant for her) and finally actually having paper photos to hand around is what her and her friends like doing. We could have a digital home with me as the sys admin... but my wife would hate it.

The alternative of lots of seperate devices that do their jobs pretty well and have to communicate together clearly requires too much collaboration and innovation for those companies pushing the "Digital Home" vision around a central server.

Media Centre is a great example of a company trying to force an idea it think SHOULD make it billions down the throats of people who don't want it. Give us loosely coupled devices that work together seemlessly not videos that chase us around the house or a central server that needs constant administration and updating.

(http://www.safesexzone.com/ Last Journal: Thursday September 22, @01:14PM ) I tried to install a second drive on my Windows Media PC, but it wouldn't work.

Eventually I broke a nail and had to abandon the project before any more damage was sustained.

(http://davidisbister.blogspot.com/ ) and this article illustrates why. Hacking together a MCE box from parts is a masochistic enterprise. MS only sells MCE to OEMs who are willing to QA their setup (acronym overload!). This writer just got a taste of what QA at Dell and HP must feel like. [ Reply to This ] (Score:5, Funny) by Nom du Keyboard (633989) on Tuesday October 25, @06:20PM (#13876168 ) As a DVR, one tuner was just OK, with a second tuner working, it was still OK, provided you weren't too picky about mouths moving at the same time words came out.

You clearly need a dual processor. One processor for each tuner. Throw enough horsepower against Microsoft and even MSWord has a decent framerate.

I've been in video since the 80's and I've seen that ONCE.

You have to be a complete idiot to break an s-video cable off like that, so I can't take anything else in the article seriously. I guess he breaks keyboard and mouse connectors off too?

[ Reply to This ] Re:What a moron by aafiske (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @07:51PM Re:What a moron by FullCircle (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @11:30PM (Score:3, Insightful) by sdstudguy (413914) on Tuesday October 25, @06:33PM (#13876284 ) I just wish Apple would produce a media center, because you know it would be refined and more then halfway decent. Doing what it does, and doing it well. Where as Bill Gates is notorious for making a wide range of products that just work poorly. Microsoft, the product name synonymous with mediocre. Want a phone OS, Desktop OS, or Media Center right now!? Then they'll have your $$$, because MediocreSoft (aka Microsoft) is there, doing what they do not well, but darn right OK enough to get your cash and nothing more.

I guess you missed the last round of product announcements from Apple?

The new iMac G5's ship with a bundled remote control, and a media shell called "Front Row" that bears more than a passing resemblance to the interfaces of Tivo, XP Media Center, and the like.

All that's missing from the equation is TV tuner support. There's one or two OEMs that sell external tuners for the Mac, but they key moment will come when Apple throws their support behind an internal, integrated solution. And to those who think that won't happen soon: were you also confident that Macs would never migrate to x86, and that iPods would never get video support?

The contrast between Microsoft and Apple's product strategies is noticeable. Microsoft rushed to market with a decent but inelegant system, and refines it little by little each year. Apple has taken its time getting their initial product out there, but the extra care they take is readily noticeable in the useability. [ Reply to This Parent ] Re:Thats Mediocresoft! by Moofie (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @07:41PM But... by Scott Byer (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @10:22PM Re:Thats Mediocresoft! by RzUpAnmsCwrds (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @11:26PM Re:Thats Mediocresoft! by necro81 (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @11:17PM (Score:4, Insightful) by tktk (540564) on Tuesday October 25, @06:36PM (#13876308 ) When I first heard about convergence, I imagined a situation where products met at the same place, like a fileserver. Picture a group random set of arrows all moving to the same spot.

But it seems that companies are doing it backwards, where they they want to be in a single spot and they're sending arrows out everywhere.

This doesn't seem like convergence to me...more like...diffusion.

(http://www.ricoder.com/ ) I'll try to put asside the apparent anti-M$ bias in the article and read it for what it is; a complaint based on poor hardware choices and a lack of understanding for what a media center should be.

Its pretty universal amongst geeks that computers belong in the living room controlling everything from lights to music to tv to door alarms...or maybe that's just me. No one, and I do mean no one, has managed to put it all together in one EASY TO USE AND REASONABLY PRICED package. You've gotta go in knowing that's the case, and you've gotta go in with a clear sense of what you want to accomplish in your price point.

I've been running MCE 2005 for about 6 months now and its doing everything I want it to do with only one major issue, HD, and that's not Microsoft's fault...its a mix of congress and cable companies. With a moderately priced 3ghz box and 1gb of ram, and a paultry 120gb of storage, I can record/watch tv, burn shows to DVD, play my music, do a funky slide-show of my pictures...and then do all of those things upstairs in a room with only a tv and an MCE extender. Add to that a wireless keyboard/mouse, and I'm editing pictures and video on my 50" HDTV. All of that is accessible by the average joe non-geek, and I think that is the whole point.

Throw in some geeky tweaks and hacks, and we're talking about streaming HD content to the box with firewire (stupid content flags), ripping and streaming DVDs and playing Age of Empires III the way it was intended...50" of pure glory.

Back to the gripes of the article, I'm having a hard time feeling sympathy. Leave the AMD thing out of it, I'm sure they make a fine product.

-However, think AUDIO IN A MEDIA PC. What did you come up with, 16 bit Sound Blaster? One would assume that you'd want something phat like an Audigy or better.

-Then there is this idea that "As a DVR, one tuner was just OK[...]", sorry, but TiVo and all similar devices have 2 tuners as well, that's why you can record one show and watch another, that gripe doesn't hold water.

-I'm missing the problems recording VHS, never had any problems.

-ATI and HDTVs as monitors is the bane of all media pc's from what I understand. Yeah, ok, I'll buy into that being a valid gripe, but I tossed my X300 in the garbage where it belonged and went nVidia and all is well. S-Video for HD...err...the guy needs to smoke another one.

-The truly valid gripe is with music. The thing is that this is supposed to be accessible to non-geekers, so the default settings try to pull in all your music and catalog it for you. I've tried all sorts of auto-catalog software, and none have worked 100% on my collection. It's pretty darn easy to go into the settings for Media Player and UNCHECK A SINGLE BOX that says "Let Media Player Catalog My Music". After that, it will just use the standard tags, not try to rename andything, and refer to folder.jpg as the album cover. Easy easy easy.

I'm not saying its perfect, but when I think it needs to be said that this is the first OS/HW combo that has gone semi-mainstream in this realm, and pleanty have tried. Combine that with the fact the MS originally was INSISTING on OEM only so they could be sure the hardware could handle the load...but people complained...and now there are gripes that the hardware can't handle the load in non-OEM machines...err... [ Reply to This ] Re:Right tool, right job by SeattleGameboy (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @06:55PM Re:Right tool, right job by ricoder (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @07:12PM Re:Right tool, right job by buck_wild (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @09:59PM (Score:1) by iWill (867290) on Tuesday October 25, @06:45PM (#13876366 ) I have used MCE 2005 for about a year now. I have two HDTV tuners and a single standard definition cable tuner in the machine, and it has always handled them beautifully. This on a modest Athlon XP 2400+ mobile chip, using the onboard sound on an Asus board. The largest headache with rolling your own HTPC is getting the right blend of hardware and drivers, but if you do a little research and plan your purchases accordingly, the DVR software packages that are out there right now provide a great television experience, including MCE. The picture quality will depend on the MPEG decoders that you use, and properly configuring your graphics card for the type of display you are driving. Building your own HTPC is not for the technophobic, and for this reason you can buy OEM Media Center PC's from several vendors, but the software and hardware ARE there TODAY that are stable and easy to use IF you have the right skillset and are willing to put some time into overcoming the initial learning curve. If you don't like Microsoft products on principle, there are plenty of alternatives: MediaPortal (open source), MythTV (open source, linux), BeyondTV, SageTV, GotAllMedia (free), GB-PVR (free), MeedioTV, etc. I have played with about half of these, and they all worked fine, ONCE I got my hardware rock solid. Having said all this, if you don't need the extra functionality of an HTPC (music, movies, games,...), you probably aren't into tweaking anyway, and should just buy a tivo. [ Reply to This ] (Score:2, Interesting) by spywhere (824072) on Tuesday October 25, @06:48PM (#13876395 ) My small company is an OEM System Builder, even though we don't want to build and sell computers (we'd rather fix them).

Microsoft invited us to an event, gave us a for-resale copy of MCE 2005, and sold us $1200 worth of hardware that they selected to work with MCE for $399: mobo, Athlon 64 3000+, RAM, video card, tuner card, everything but a case and power supply.

So, I brought it all home, built a Media Center, and invited it into our lives.

It did what we asked of it, although it did so rather poorly.

The sound and video were synched OK, and the TV listing and recording features were easy to use. The remote control and IR blaster worked our Comcast digital box with about 95% reliability (and that 5% is a HUGE pain in the ass, let me tell you). All in all, it did most of what a TiVo (or Comcast's own DVR) could manage, in a much larger and louder package.

(Note: You can install more than one tuner card, but you must use the same tuning method on all cards... to do this on our setup, we would have needed to use two rented digital cable boxes).

Here's the best part: the build was only stable for about a month, after which it would BSOD and reboot itself about once a day. Rebuilding the OS would solve the problem for another month, so it was NOT hardware-related.

Happy ending: the parts made a smoking fast desktop, which is stable (as stable as any Windows box, at least). [ Reply to This ] Re:MS tried to get me to sell MCE 2005 by spywhere (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @07:23PM Re:MS tried to get me to sell MCE 2005 by ricoder (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @07:47PM Re:MS tried to get me to sell MCE 2005 by Utopia (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @08:18PM (Score:2) by no_opinion (148098) on Tuesday October 25, @06:51PM (#13876419 ) A year ago, I built a media center PC using components off Microsoft's MCE hardware list and went with the components mentioned in various places as "most stable". I have an HD tuner and an analog tuner and I don't have any problems with my MCE. It's been reliable enough that I got rid of my Tivo. Of course, I'm not the typical user because I'm getting HD exclusively over the air (not via cable). I have my entire CD collection ripped to a second hard drive, I have over 2 gigs of family photos, I use the music subscription services, and my only complaint is that there's no automatic way to put it into suspend at night.

I suspect that most problems are caused by poor hardware choices and unnecessary messing with the software and OS. If you want something to work as reliably as a CE device, you can't use sketchy hardware or use applications that were not meant to work together.

Just one man's opinion ;-) [ Reply to This ] Re:Works for me! by Utopia (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @08:04PM Re:Works for me! by no_opinion (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @08:10PM Re:Works for me! by qodfathr (Score:2) Tuesday October 25, @11:16PM (Score:2) by RapmasterT (787426) on Tuesday October 25, @06:52PM (#13876427 ) I really, really tried to build a media PC. I tried it with generic XP and a variety of add on apps, and I tried it with XP MCE also.

The deal killer was I already had a Tivo. The reason I wanted a Media PC was ease of burning stuff to DVD to archive, and by the time I was done I had an extremely convoluted method to do what should have been simple. Most of all however, the $1500 or so that I sunk into it ended up wtih a really shitty picture quality, far inferior to the $100 Tivo I already had.

My final compromise was to use the Media pc I'd built for music and DVD copyi...uh...I mean "archiving", and bought a new Tivo with a built in DVD burner.

I honestly have no idea why TV tuner picture quality in a $400 tuner card sucks so badly compared to the tuner in a $50 (now) Tivo, but that is a MAJOR sticking point for this whole idea.

(http://www.opcodevoid.com/ ) I have recently attempted to put together a PVR type solution for my home. I tried several different methods ranging from Linux to Windows. In Linux I tried MythTV which seemed difficult to setup and didn't handle my dual tuner well. I tried Microsoft Windows XP Media Center Edition and found the interface to be rather nice, however it seemed difficult to get some applications and drivers to work. I also tried Snapstream's Beyond TV which worked rather well, but seemed to be a bit of a loose jumble of a few pieces of software. This made BeyondTV sort of annoying to navigate through. Finally I gave up and decided to get a DVR from Comcast. This actually solved my problem rather well. I was able to record my shows and watch them when I wanted to, and still use the computer for games and movies. For some people it may be annoying to have both a computer and the DVR, but it saves on purchasing a TV tuner card and PVR software. A downside to this is that you can't easily transfer the recorded content to your computer, but for a good chunk of people, this isn't an important feature. [ Reply to This ] (Score:2) by BCW2 (168187) on Tuesday October 25, @07:10PM (#13876568 ) Why does anyone want to take things that work fine, like TV (cable or Sat) or Stereo and hook them up to something that has never worked right in history? A Windows PC. This just makes no sense at all, and I thought geeks used logic. A Tivo has always been a better choice, and it's much cheaper.

My boss (white box store) wanted to build one of these in Feb. and I through the same argument at him, we still don't have a media center PC in the showroom. The TV he bought is now upstairs in the weekend party room hooked to a Tivo. [ Reply to This ] Re:Why? by Moofie (Score:1) Tuesday October 25, @07:56PM (Score:4, Insightful) by BigDish (636009) on Tuesday October 25, @07:15PM (#13876599 ) Having run XP MCE 2005 since it came out, I have to believe that this "review" is useless and the "reviewer" is clueless. There's several things in the article which, just one of them, could be a mistake, but all of them together make it seem like the reviewer is not qualified to review XP MCE.

First of all, the author thinks that the IR Blaster is a receiver. Secondly, the reviewer resorted to using S-Video over HDMI...then managed to break an S-Video cable. Not that PowerStrip is easy to use, but it seems that the author was incapable of using it.

As to adding music, I'm not sure what's wrong with the author's network, but I have about 100GB of music and MCE adds it relatively quickly - certainly in minutes, not days as the reviewer indicated.

I'm not sure what the reviewer's problem is with the radio - did he not realize you could manually select a station with the seek function?

As to the general problems relating to him implying it was sluggish on his PC (Audio Sync Problems, slow importing time, etc) something is clearly wrong with how he configured his PC - I have MCE 2005 running on a machine less than 1/2 the speed (P4 1.6GHz) and it runs great with two tuners. Is XP MCE perfect? No. But I've used TiVo, ReplayTV, MythTV and XP MCE and so far MCE is my favorite.

Clippit has performed at numerous clubs around the world, working most famously along the south coast of England until he was displaced by that break-dancing dog with the l33t w3ld0r ski11z.

People always assume you need to spend a great deal of money for Tivo box. I recently bought a Tivo 40 hour for $50AR. I bought a 300gig HD for $100. I spent $299 for the lifetime subscription. So, for $449 I now have a 300 hour Tivo box.

Now, on the value of Tivo versus Myth.TV and the variety of other vendors. It will cost you well more than $800 for the hardware to properly run a computer that is setup similar to a Tivo box. If you make it a Media Center computer, you're talking easily $1500-2000 for something that isn't much cheaper than Tivo. Cost wise, I spent $449 dollars over a 5-10 year period on something that will work. No messy fixes, no glitches because a built-in soundcard doesn't have a linux driver, it just works.

Tivo is to media devices what Apple is to computers, they build things that work intuitively. Take the dive, spend the money up front, and enjoy Tivo. The work-arounds for a "free" DVR aren't there, and probably never will be.

Perhaps the "builder" did not realize that Google Provides All. There is a site called The Green Button (I think its UK based), that is currently the best MCE forum around. There were a couple of instances where I wanted to do something the MCE didn't natively do and TGB provided me with solutions.

I'd say anyone who wants a more balanced oppinion of what MCE IS and what MCE IS NOT, should spend 20 minutes flipping through that forum and seeing what people are praising, griping about, and generally doing with MCE. Either that, or believe the (oh my god, I'm going to use this horrible term, I swore I never would, omg...) FUD. [ Reply to This ] (Score:2) by csimicah (592121) on Tuesday October 25, @07:57PM (#13876897 ) Maybe some of you guys already saw this guy get (politely but firmly) put in his place in the forum over there.

Sorry you had so many problems trying to build your own Media Center.

So the reason you can't burn DVDs through the Media Center interface is because you need the Sonic encoders for the Sonic burn engine which is what is used by Media Center to burn DVDs. Unfortunately, the Sonic encoders are only available to OEMs and are not available to system builders.

This is just one of the many reasons (you ran into several others) why Media Center is not available as a standalone OS (unless you go through Newegg).

Windows Media Center. [ Reply to This ] (Score:2) by RzUpAnmsCwrds (262647) on Tuesday October 25, @08:40PM (#13877127 ) I run a MCE 2005 box with two tuners. The tuners are AverMedia M150s, about as cheap as you can get for a tuner with MPEG-2 encoding (about $60 each).

- Decent drives. A 7200rpm SATA drive is best, I use a Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB. If possible, have a separate drive for storing shows than the one you use to boot off of.

- A GOOD GPU. I found that a 64-bit GeForce FX 5200 just didn't cut it. I use a NV44A GeForce 6200 now.

- A good DVD decoder. I use NVIDIA PureVideo decoder because it has hardware acceleration. PowerDVD also works pretty well.

That's about it. No audio sync issues with my Realtek ALC850 built in audio. No problems driving both a standard-def tv and an HDTV (component) with my NVIDIA card.

Complaining that your HD projector doesn't like PC resolutions (duh) or that S-Video cables break easily (again, duh) is really bone-headed. These things are not problems with Media Center, they are problems with you not understanding that driving an HD projector using a DVI-HDMI adaptor and a standard graphics card is a HACK. Expecting it to work perfectly is stupid.

Compared with Myth and other Windows DVR solutions, Media Center is easier to configure and easier to use. It's not TiVo, but it's not supposed to be TiVo. [ Reply to This ] (Score:2) by TheNetAvenger (624455) on Tuesday October 25, @09:06PM (#13877270 ) I have four computers in my home running media center edition 2004 and now 2005. They use both internal and external USB 2.0 tuners.

I have NEVER seen the voice and audio not sync on ANY of the systems. And the picture quality is at the control of the tuner, but is outstanding in comparison to the old TiVo and Cable DVR units I have used, especailly when pushing the images to a LARGE 8' HD Display.

These articles are insane, and you give them credibility by even posting them here?

What if I wrote one on how all TV Tuners look crappy on Linux (Which is NOT true), would you just post it here as well?

What the hell has happened to Slashdot. This once use to be a respected Tech and Open Source news site, and now even in places you wouldn't expect, to make fun of something, I hear and see techs calling it a 'Slashdot Article'. And here you are, once again proving them right.

BTW, Even one of My Media Center systems is a freaking Laptop I use on the Road, and I tell it what city I am in, give it a cable feed, and my shows are STILL recorded perfectly, no matter where I am on the road, in fact, it wakes itself up using ACPI and records the shows if I hibernate or turn the computer off... It don't get anymore convienient than this...

This is cache, read story here